Unauthorized Borrowing of Food from an Agreeable Owner

‘BORROWING’ A BAG OF POTATO CHIPS

Q: My roommate is away for Shabbos. May I ‘borrow’ his bag of potato chips and replace it right after Shabbos?

The Talmud relates that three sages, Ameimar, Mar Zutra, and Rav Ashi visited the orchard of Mari Bar Issik. Although Mari Bar Issik was not there, his employee gave the sages fruit to eat. Ameimar and Rav Ashi partook in the fruits, while Mar Zutra did not. Mar Zutra seemed to be concerned that  the employee was not authorized to give his employer’s fruits to guests, while Ameimar and Rav Ashi presumed that the employer would want his guests served. When the Mari Bar Issik arrived, he asked his sharecropper why he didn’t honor the sages with even better fruits.  Nevertheless, Mar Zutra refused to eat the fruits that were offered, and explained that he was concerned that perhaps the owner did not truly want to offer him the fruits, and was doing so only because he was embarrassed to appear less generous than his sharecropper.

. Tosfos raises a basic question. When the sharecropper originally offered the fruits, he did so without Mari Bar Issik’s permission or knowledge. As such, how were the rabbis allowed to partake in the food without the owner’s permission?

Tosfos explains that this depends on the famous Talmudic discussion of ‘Yiush Shelo Midaas’. We know that when a person loses an object (it becomes an אבידה) and gives up hope of finding it, it is considered ‘yiush’ and the finder may keep it. What if a person dropped an item but does not yet know that it was lost? When he realizes that it is missing, he will certainly be Mayayesh and will lose his ownership, however, due to his lack of knowledge he has not actually been meyayesh at this time. This question is called ‘yiush shelo middaas’, (literally ‘relinquishing ownership without knowledge’). The Talmud deliberates whether the owner needs to consciously give up ownership and therefore such forms of ‘yiush’ are not sufficient (lo havi yiush) or does the fact that he will surely give up ownership when he finds out suffice (havi yiush)? The final halacha is ‘Yiush shelo midaas lo havi yiush’, that unconsciously relinquishing ownership is not sufficient.

Tosfos understands that the question of ‘Yiush Shelo Midaas’ about a lost object applies to using another person’s items without permission as well. Consuming another person’s food without permission is stealing. However, does that permission need to be explicit or can it just be assumed? Once the Talmud concludes regarding a lost object that only explicitly relinquishing ownership is sufficient, the same applies with eating the other person’s food. Only explicit permission is sufficient. As such, if the fruits belonged to Mari Bar Issik, the Rabbis would not have eaten them before he arrived and gave explicit permission. For this reason Tosfos suggests an alternate explanation of the story about the fruits, and explains that the fruits technically belonged to the sharecropper and therefore he was allowed to give them to the Rabbis.

Tosfos’s comments are very relevant to our question. According to Tosfos, knowing that an owner wouldn’t mind if you took something that belongs to him does not give one the license to help themselves to it. Express permission is necessary. As such, it would seem that it is forbidden for the roommate to ‘borrow’ his friend’s bag of potato chips. Since the owner is not present and is unaware that you would like to eat them, he clearly has not expressly relinquished his ownership. The fact that when the roommate is subsequently asked  he will certainly say he doesn’t mind is insufficient to permit taking it without his knowledge. As the discussion of ‘Yiush shelo midaas’ teaches us, it is not enough that the roommate would relinquish ownership if he knew, he needs to actually give permission. As such, it is forbidden to take them.

The Shach, however, disagrees with Tosphos and suggests that the story of the three sages is not connected to the discussion of ‘Yiush shelo midaas’. ‘Yiush shelo midaas’ is a discussion concerning a lost object. Nobody wants to give up hope and relinquish his possessions. Although when he eventually realizes that the item is lost, he will despair of recovery and be meyayesh, that occurs only when he has that actual knowledge. Until then, the item remains his and consequently, a person that finds it must return it to the owner (bi’isura asa leyado). In contrast, using another person’s object when they surely would allow it if they knew is a very different discussion. The Torah is not suspending the ownership of a belligerent owner. Rather, the owner wants his friend to use it. When the owner is forced to give up ownership we need him to actually be aware of the situation, but when the owner wants to share his possession, the wanting alone is sufficient to permit the friend to take it without explicit permission.

According to this approach, the sages were allowed to partake in the fruit even before the owner knew about their visit, provided that they were completely confident that he will sincerely be pleased with his sharecropper’s generosity. Likewise, according to the Shach, if the roommate would be happy that his friend is eating his chips, it would be permitted to do so. He does not need to consciously give permission.

As a matter of Halacha, some acharonim maintain that the Rambam adopts the lenient position of the Shach. However, the Shulchan Aruch HaRav and the Aruch Hashulchan are stringent like Tosfos.

The Shulchan Aruch HaRav asks that according to Tosphos that it is prohibited to take a friends item without express permission, why may a family member honor a guest or a poor person with some food when the head of the household is not home to give permission? Technically, the food belongs to the head of the household, and although he would consent that it be shared, there is no express permission and it should be prohibited according to Tosphos?  The Shulchan Aruch HaRav answers that  since it is common to share food with guests, there is an implied consent from the head of the household that whatever food he has may be shared. This is not yiush shelo mdas since every head of household is aware and accepts that his food will be shared with guests. In contrast, the cases above involved unusual circumstances, where either an item was lost, or distinguished guests chanced upon an orchard.

With this discussion in mind, we can return to our original question about ‘borrowing’ the roommate’s bag of potato chips. The fact that the roommate will not mind if his friend eats his bag of chips and replaces it does not necessarily make it permitted. According to the approach of the Shach knowing that he would not mind is sufficient. However, according to Tosfos it is still forbidden unless there is express permission. If it is extremely common for roommates to borrow food from each other without asking, it may be similar to the case of the Shulchan Aruch Harav; however, for this heter to apply it must be a clear minhag. If it is not completely clear, one should not ‘borrow’ the bag of potato chips without actual permission. Nonetheless, a simple way of avoiding this issue would be to ask the roommate in advance if it OK to use his items if such a situation arises. This would alleviate the entire question.

From Business Halacha, here.

כל ישראל בני מלכים הם – שיר

מידד טסה-בן של מלך אולפן

Published on Nov 16, 2009

By Sean Mizrahi הועלה ע”י שון מזרחי

בדרכך שלך בחרתי
אחחח.. לא טעיתי
בתורתך תמיד ידעתי
ונישבעתי
אל תעזבני אלוהים
כי אני….

כי אני בן של מלך
ורק אתה אחד מולך
לך גדולה לך כתר
לך ישירו מלאכי שרת x2

זכה הנשמה שלי נתת
אשמור עלייה אותה אהבתה
כל כך יפה היא טהורה אותה יצרתה
אל תעזבני אלוהים
שמור אותיי!

כי אני בן של מלך
ורק אתה אחד מולך
לך גדולה לך כתר
לך ישירו מלאכי שרת x4

מאתר יוטיוב, כאן.

הרב יואל ראטה שליט”א – חתמת על הכתובה?! צא לעבוד…

הרב יואל ראטה שליט”א – חתמת על הכתובה?! צא לעבוד…

Published on May 7, 2017

מוטיבציה וחיזוקים

זכות עצומה לתרום ולעזור לישיבה החשובה של הרב יואל ראטה שליט”א: https://secure.cardknox.com/yeshivati…

מאתר יוטיוב, כאן.

‘Zehut’ Would Be an Improvement, If Only for the Rhetoric

Religion and State in Israel: An Interview with Moshe Feiglin on Israel Army Radio

Your stand is a bit complex and very interesting. You say that Health Minister Litzman, (editor: who resigned from the government due to the desecration of the Shabbat by state-funded train construction) is completely right. On the other hand, you say that on questions of Shabbat observance of privately owned supermarkets and on public transportation, every community should decide for itself. Please explain the dissonance between Litzman’s stand and your own.

There is dissonance between Israel’s identity as a Jewish state and the need to preserve the almost-absolute liberty of the citizens. Liberty is also a Jewish idea. The State of Israel has to express its Jewishness in everything associated with its official institutions and its state structures – like the train, which, perhaps should not be, but is currently part of the government structure. On the other hand, issues like where there will be open supermarkets on Shabbat should not be decided by the Knesset – the central government – but rather inside the community, in the neighborhood.

Isn’t that what we have now with the status quo? (editor: The arrangement established upon Israel’s founding whereby religious observance in Israel’s public domain would remain as it was then.) There are municipal by-laws and supermarkets in certain communities are open and nevertheless, there is some sort of general Jewish, religious character. That is very close to what is happening now. 

From a certain standpoint, it is going in the same direction, but in other ways, not at all and it may even go in the opposite direction. For example The local community is the body that will decide if the gay parade will march through its territory or not. It goes in both directions: Not only deciding whether to open or not but how its character and nature will be in general.

Let us go into detail. An elderly couple who lives in Haifa. They want to travel to their children in Rishon on Shabbat. They do not have a car. They need public transportation on Shabbat. Will they have it?

If you ask me, Zehut is opposed to public transportation on weekdays, as well. The State does not have to transport people. The State has to make it possible for private companies to do it efficiently and inexpensively. And if the State would do so, that couple would have many more inexpensive options, as opposed to today. All of that would be without State intervention. That is actually the great lie. But we are not here to talk about details like transportation, but rather about Israel’s Jewish character. Let us focus on that.

Let us talk about Israel’s Jewish character. The question is why to breach something that has functioned well for decades, since the founding of the State, and to come and say that it is not the role of the Knesset. The status quo has worked not badly at all until now.

I remember clashes over the Shabbat since my childhood and I am already 55. To say that it functioned not badly is really far from accurate. Clashes over religion and identity take place here all the time. These clashes form the basis for polarization and never-ending conflict. As soon as we remove the State from this game and leave the question of the identity of the area in the hands of the community instead of in the hands of the State, two things will happen. First, we will have one less thing to fight over. Second – and perhaps this will surprise you – Israel’s Jewish identity will become stronger because a large majority of the citizens of Israel are interested in fortifying our Jewish identity.

How do you preserve the State’s Jewish identity if you uproot the Shabbat, which is something so essential to Judaism?

I hope you do not suspect me of trivializing the Shabbat.

I do not suspect you, I just want to challenge you in this discussion, that is all.

I will tell you why I think that Litzman, in this discussion, is absolutely right. Because the State – as opposed to the individual – does have to be committed to the Torah of Israel and to the culture of Israel, which primarily stems from the Torah of Israel. As we know, it is fine to close the major Tel Aviv-Jerusalem highway in the middle of the week just because the US or French president has arrived – even if he doesn’t actually use the highway, but is just on his way from the airport to Jerusalem and flying over the highway. Nobody asks how it is that in the middle of the week you closed a major traffic artery because the king of the Americans or the king of the French arrived. By the same token, we as a state must honor our culture and identity and know that a government company – a company that belongs to the government and not to individuals – does not work on Shabbat. Actually, the entire debate is over how much weight we give to the identity of the State, or to our State as a Jewish State.

Moshe Feiglin, let us talk about the core issues like weddings, conversions. According to your model, are they community issues? Government?

My grandparents of blessed memory were wed before the State was established and they managed to get married despite the fact that the State did not wed them. If they had needed to, which they didn’t – to divorce, they could have also done that without the State. The State should not wed people or divorce them. The State has to register them and it should even desist from that. It is important to understand, for all those who immediately begin to shout, “How will we be a Jewish State?” We have grown accustomed to relying on central government or the State as the body that must foster the character of our state or society. We are constantly fighting over this.

That is the whole idea of democracy. You elect your representatives and they are those who fashion the public space, including on issues like how the Shabbat will look.

The role of the State is to defend you. It is not the role of the State to wed and divorce you, not to transport you and not many other things that politicians say.

That is a different issue. I am asking about the character of the Shabbat. These are our elected officials on both the local and national level.

Let’s give an example that people will understand. When they asked the residents of Northern Tel Aviv if they are interested in their local shopping mall being open on Shabbat, the majority of the elitist, secular residents answered that they prefer for it to be closed. Because this issue has become an issue over which we fight in the Knesset and not in the neighborhood, suddenly they talk about religious coercion and divisions and everybody joins in – and everybody benefits politically from the fight. What we want is for these issues to be determined in the community.

What is the role of the Chief Rabbinate in your model? What authority will it have?

The only authority that it will retain will be conversions because we are a Jewish State and in order to know who can become a citizen and who cannot, the State needs to be able to turn to a government body. Thus, this authority cannot be taken from the Chief Rabbinate. The rest of the authority of the Rabbinate will be in determining a standard. For example, the Rabbinate will have to determine what food is kosher and what is not. It will not supervise kosher status, but an establishment that claims that it is kosher will say, “Kosher according to the Rabbinate standard”. This enables us to leave the dialogue in the hands of the citizens, to determine their identity, to stop fighting. The interest today in preserving our identity is much, much broader than we think.  When politicians try to take the credit and turn the issue into a boxing ring, the entire issue gets stuck.

This is actually a model of ideological capitalism, is it not? The majority will determine the character.

We want liberty. We want a dialectic between different communities. In all, an amazing process is occurring here, of a nation returning to its Land with all kinds of ideas, ideologies, and identities. A dialogue can develop here. Everybody wants it. Let’s allow it to happen.

Moshe Feiglin, it was very, very interesting. Thank you very much.